Eric:
Well, it gives me great pleasure to introduce comrade Patrick, also known as Dr. Nsime. I've known Patrick for close to 30, 40 years. I first met Patrick in... 1989 as a student and very quickly adorned upon me that Patrick was someone who was going to do interesting things with his life. Patrick was one of our leaders at the University in Social Work and I worked alongside Patrick in different projects. We worked with kids who were exposed to political violence when shacks were being burnt down and we were attempting to do therapy with these kids. Perhaps a bit of a naive project. It's questionable whether it was useful or not, but nonetheless we did it. And I knew then that Patrick was going to do something very interesting with his life. and I've observed Patrick over the years making from my mind a significant contribution and committing himself to the wounds of apartheid. When I knew Patrick we used to often speak about trying to heal the wounds of apartheid. I forget the actual words we used to use but it was along those lines. And now Patrick, like myself, is coming closer to retirement age and Patrick is one of those people who's often been behind the scenes making a contribution. So I thought in terms of creating an archive of someone who's made a contribution that it's important that Patrick's commitment to post-apartheid South Africa gets acknowledged. And as such
Patrick has agreed to be part of this interview and I'm very grateful to you for joining us, Patrick. Thank you.
Patrick:
Yes, thank you so much Erk, sorry for interruption. Yes, thank you so much for acknowledging me and for inviting me to this podcast. It really means a lot and I highly appreciate talking to you guys. Thanks.
Eric:
So my first question and we'll alternate in terms of questions. I'll ask a question and then Matt will ask a question. Do you prefer to be known as comrade or doctor in CMA?
Patrick:
Very interesting question, because like you said, 35 years ago, I was proudly a comrade, I was a development activist, and over time, lot of things happened. And some of those things include politics, the politics of being a comrade. Remember, we were comrades in the African National Congress, we did things... in the name of the ANC, so the ANC of then and the ANC of now is quite different. So I'm still a comrade but not too much of a comrade, you can call me Dr. Nzimi for now. And you'll come back to that point.
Razorsmile:
As a child, Patrick, did you ever imagine the way your life would have turned out?
Patrick:
Not really, I mean at an early age of 9, 10, 11, I was already a head boy, looking after cattle, spending a lot of time in bushes, in forests, and after school I used to go to, to mend the fields. So, I was thrown into this deep end, you could call it child labor, and I think this is in the context of what one went through as a child, so it was like... something was preparing me for this bigger role. As Eric said in his introduction, I always had this mindset that I wanted to change the World, I wanted to do bigger things for my people, for my village. And surely after waking up from that dream as a child and having met Eric and all what happened in our career, I realized that it was... I was being prepared. for this big or a little child, but I was in a fuller way obviously.
Eric:
Do you think your children, because your children have grown up now, do you think your children can have any idea as to what your childhood was like? And would you want them to have any idea as to what your childhood was like? Because I assume their childhood is very different to the childhood you had.
Patrick:
Absolutely, I think it's also very important for them to know exactly what we went through as children. They don't associate or relate to my experiences, for example, I tell them that I used to eat chicken shit for lunch. I used to eat worms infested in sump and stuff like that, because there was nothing else to eat. used to walk bare feet in the forest, going through the bushes. So, those kind of experiences, they sound strange, but those are real life experiences. So, I want them to know what we went through, so that they don't immerse themselves into those kind of things. Again, they just need to do things slightly different. And with that, I tell them that I was actually... teaching myself to become resilient. So that resilience brought me success and that success brought me to where I am now and that's the teachings that I give them all the time, to become more resilient, to be more independent and to just keep doing what they have to do with their lives.
Razorsmile:
When you studied social work, you were taught one-to-one therapy and group work and community and development work. Which of these modalities did you specialize in and why?
Patrick:
I specialized in one-to-one therapy. After graduating from UCT, I joined Cape Mental Health. I did a screening of people living with mental illness and a mental handicap and I also did a bit of psychotherapy. So that fascinated me. I think the state of the mind, the state of the brain, the state of the behavior, the psychology of people, is something that fascinated me that time. So I drew a lot of experiences. from my patients, learning more about illnesses, learning more about the Asbeck, because usually we concerned a lot about the tip of the Asbeck, and mental health and psychology is more about what is under the... under the sea. So, in all the careers I've been through, I've been through about seven industries, and I've almost applied those experiences. into those disciplines. So basically, clinical social work and clinical psychology made me understand people much more better in other fields. I usually say each discipline has its own mental states. People think differently in their different disciplines. And with the seven disciplines that I've gone through, I've learned so many things, interesting things about... Human behavior, from being in the social sciences, to being in the banking sector. That was a 180 degree shift, and that was what empowered me to understand in people much more better.
Eric:
you after university if I understand correctly you lectured at the University of the Western Cape and you did your PhD but then you decided to go into development work I suppose to just two things can you can you remind me of what you did your PhD in and why the switch to development work
Patrick:
Yes, I did my PhD in the water sector. I wanted to learn more about the water sector and whether the sector saved its people. And I traveled across about six South American countries, drawing lessons out of those countries, because they have been, they are almost ahead, about 20, 30 years ahead of us, in terms of water reforms. With us in South Africa, water as you know, was in the hands of the few. which was a private property and therefore black people didn't have access to clean potable water. So I wanted to learn about the sector and how my learnings or my skills could impact the lives of those that they've been saving. I was keen to do more exploration on this sector because when we grew up we shared sources with animals, with donkeys, with cattle. with cows, like the goats and stuff like that. We share the same source of drinking water. So that was kind of a resolve for me to say that these are the kind of things I need to change. And strange enough, for the past 20 years I've been working with the development bank, doing development work. I've done amazing work. We've done projects in the region of 20 billion rands across the whole South Africa and I feel very proud that I've left... that legacy, where I've taken all my dreams and put them into practice. So that's for me the definition of development work. It's based on my experiences, based on my professional exposure, and based on the knowledge that I gained throughout the years.
Get a gun here.
Razorsmile:
Sorry, what is your understanding of development work? Is it different, for example, to the theory that you might be taught at university? I mean, you've been practically involved. So given that practical involvement, what's the understanding and how does it differ from what can be taught?
Patrick:
Yes, I mean when you are a student you get immersed into different theories, different paradigms ... We were taught that development is something that ought to be done practically based on the knowledge that we've gained. We've been taught about different theories of development, but I've come to experience development slightly different, I mean... development for me is about people and people is about the capacity for the people to empower themselves, to be independent, to be in control of their lives and development has to do with humanity and humanity has to do with being passionate, being compassionate with people that we interact with on a daily basis. But recently and not long ago I tend to What is the way to question these notions of development of Humanity, of ... International Community, where, for example, life is cheap, but at University you are taught, life is something that needs to be embraced. I'm referring for example to what's going on in Gaza. I mean, if really there was this thing called Humanity, or International Community, or development. we wouldn't be watching live on TV, people being slaughtered on a daily basis, and life just goes on. So I begin to question those notions of development, what's development, from whose perspective is development? I think those are the questions I start asking myself. What is humanity, from whose perspective is humanity? So I'm beginning to question a lot of those notions and everybody I think is now clear, what's going on in the Planet. because there's development for some and development for a few. So, yeah, that's what we were taught and those things are contrary to the practical experiences on the ground.
Eric:
I want to just think a little bit about your first experience of the development work you did around water. And you spoke very powerfully and very movingly about as a child having to share the same water with animals. Can you tell us what you actually did in terms of helping create water opportunities for people to have water? And what was it like to actually see the communities getting access to water, people who had previously not had access to water?
Patrick:
Actually for the past 10 years, when I was still with the development bank, because I only took early retirement last year, previously I was the acting head of municipal sector in the DVSA, overseeing a 30 billion Rens water, not water program, but this all the sectors, it's almost like the whole portfolio, is water, sanitation, roads, everything all in one. on the municipal side. development work first starts with raising capital to develop the infrastructure. And in our case, we were looking mainly at the areas which were previously under-served, where we would... they would come to us, we would raise the capital and they would go and implement. But there's one flagship project, you probably know the VAL, the VAL triangle, the VAL... area in South Africa, in the Fanavel Park. About 15 years ago, the place was infested with sewer, sewage in the streets, in the rivers. I think the problem still persists. So we went there as colleagues to go and do our investigation. But this was done for the municipality. But privately, I went to the local schools, because sewer was flowing through the classrooms. I was accompanied by the Department of Education in the area. I wrote a letter to all the private companies in that area, the big companies, and I called them in one big meeting, showed them the pictures, and I asked them, would you allow this, kids to study in this kind of conditions, because as you were there, kids were actually playing soccer in the... Effluent, you know effluent, effluent is it clear, it's like urine, but it flows like water. They were playing in those kind of environments, they were even eating lunch in those kind of environments. That was a kind of environment that pushed me to, to approach private sector, to establish a social investment fund. I managed privately to raise 22 million Rens, half of it...
or two-thirds of it came from the GBSA, the other came from private sector. Fast forward, we hired a contractor, they went in the schools, they erected systems, they fixed the toilets. Almost 6,000 kids, as we speak, are living in healthy conditions. The Department of Education is proud, they gave us testimonials. So, that was one big intervention, which I pursued privately, because nobody else was gonna do it. And I saw a need for it, because nobody was gonna do it, the municipality didn't have the resources, the Department of Education didn't have the resources. So, I... plowed back what we did 35 years ago, Eric and Philippe. It came back into my situation, I raised 20 million Ranzo 22, today 6,000 kids are better off living in a healthy environment without sewer. I can share the pictures with you, it's just one man show, obviously with the support of colleagues and stakeholders, but if I didn't do it, those 6,000 kids will still be playing in the sewer.
Eric:
Matt, just before you answer the question, I'd just like to follow up. mean, that's a very, very, very powerful story. We talk in 6,000 children. We talk in people living in conditions which...
Yeah, extreme. What was it like for you to then see the kids being able to have access to clean water? And do people thank you for that? Was there a thanks? Did you actually meet the children or were you just the person behind the scene who made this possible? I'm just trying to get a sense as to it's like when they interview someone on
Patrick:
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep.
Eric:
on screen when they score a goal in a big football match and then they ask the person what was it like to do that. But I'm wondering if there was any celebration for you in terms of what you achieved and do you think about this? mean in terms of having left this legacy, this very real legacy.
Patrick:
Yes.
You probably know me better by now, that I don't like the... the limelight. I'm a kind of guy who... who'd love to be at the back when others celebrate. But when I look at the pictures, that gives me so much joy, so much happiness. In fact, I'm planning to visit those schools, because I want to do more schools. I was talking to the department two days ago. just to check how far they are, if something else could be done for more schools. So, yes, I was acknowledged, even my bosses were surprised that I pulled this on my own, without anybody asking. It was not part of my job, I just had to do it and I didn't benefit anything out of it. So, I did it for the right reason and the right reason was to empower. child who was endangered in terms of health. So yes, I feel proud about that.
Razorsmile:
You mentioned there that the right reason and there's a complicated relationship with development and development processes. And that's one of the things I want to ask about, because obviously there's very powerful stories like you're telling, but there are also critics of development work that link it, for example, to capitalist development, to the idea of like integrating things that exist into a kind of capitalist way of life. sometimes undermining other ways of life, alternative community ways of engaging with the earth or with people and resources. In your relationship to development work, how do you kind of see it being tied to capitalism? How do you see it being tied to dealing with communities? How does that complicated sort of nexus of difficult relationships operate for you? mean, is it a constant attempt to... recover something from a dynamic that's going in a negative direction or is there a positive dynamic that just needs nudges? I mean, how does this work in that sort of sense?
Patrick:
Yeah. think it's both positive and negative because capitalism and its interventions are structural in nature. Capital by itself is a structural issue. There's so many different levers in terms of policies, in terms of decision makers, whether it's from politicians, whether it's from private capital. So it brings its own dynamics and it brings a lot of resources and it's complex. So it's a structural issue but also very complex. And what I've seen is that to tackle capitalism you really need to immerse yourself into so many dimensions of development. What do I mean by that? If you hate it, you must design ways of getting resources. Out of it, you must use means of abusing it for your own gains. What do I mean? Getting funding from capitalists to implement school projects as an example. Because they control the resources, they control the means. The opposite of capitalism, unfortunately... is limited in terms of resources and for you to do development work you need resources, need funding, you need skills, you need technology and those are all housed in capitalism. Unfortunately it's a very powerful state and it's something that is in the hands of the few or the so-called development world, they are the ones who control everything that goes around. So...
As a country for example, in the rural areas, everybody is dependent on capitalism. I mean, look at what is happening now in the US, with the threats of imposing more tariffs on the goods coming from us. So, we can easily say, yes, just do it. But what are the implications downstream, in terms of access to resources, access to infrastructure? Because capital is tied to the entire... Capitalists and monetary policies and monetary solutions of every country. So we are all unfortunately, tear up into one big system, dominant system. But all I'm saying is, let's find ways of using it for our own development gains.
Eric:
I want to just explore this just a little bit more and I want to think about the actual communities you're working with because you've been working with different communities over 30 years and the community has a particular need. The person who's going to fund the project has another understanding as to what's going on in terms of how to respond to this. So there's lots of conflicted interests in terms of what should happen.
Patrick:
Ahem.
Eric:
Thinking about trying to develop and respond to the community's needs. What would be one or two lessons you would give to somebody who's going into the field of development, trying to work on an issue like... infrastructure issue in a rural village somewhere. What would your advice be? How would they balance trying to listen to the community but they're also under pressure from those who the funders who have another idea in terms of what should happen?
Patrick:
think for me the biggest strength and input I've made in those spaces is introducing participatory development approaches where communities have a voice, where you go in to find out what the needs of the people are, but not to decide for the people, meaning that development is doing work with the people, but not for the people. So the people's voices... them having ownership and that, by the way, those are ingredients of sustainable development because, I've learned that also in South America, where people would contribute towards their own diesel, for instance, to maintain a local water supply, because they don't want to rely too much on government, they want to avoid red tape, so they keep their sources up to date, they do their own... collections, they do their own operations and maintenance, and as a result, you can have sustainability. You come to a South African situation, where unfortunately through the history of apartheid, people got entitled to resources, so people sit back when they believe that the government will do something for me. That is why today we have what is called a culture of non-payment for services. So, a lot of people are not paying for the water supply, they're not paying for sanitation. Why? Because it's the right thing to do, it's a... it's part of the legacy of apartheid, people were against apartheid and therefore didn't pay. So, now that democracy came in, people want to continue with that kind of mindset and therefore that's why the systems of maintenance of operations in South Africa, in the water sector are falling apart. Because municipalities are not in a position to sustain the supply of services without adequate funding, because they need to collect rates and taxes, they need to collect services used or bills that needs to be paid, they need to collect the revenue, but that is not happening, therefore they are unable to invest in new infrastructure. They are unable to operate and maintain.
So that culture of non-payment for services is now a cancer in the South African society. So if I was to advise somebody to go into a new community, definitely let people own the processes, let people own decisions, let people own what needs to happen, give them options, let them be the ones who take leadership at that level. In that way, if somebody owns something and they feel they part of something, and they feel their views are respected, their voice, chances are they will pay for their services and those services will be sustained. That's been the greatest lesson in the sector or in the Space.
Razorsmile:
You're talking about participatory relationships in development. mean, this sounds like the relationships people have both to their infrastructure and to the management and maintenance of that infrastructure. It's almost as important as the kind of capital funding for the concrete and the machinery and the pipes and things. Is that something that's a standard framework of thinking within development or is that something that you bring to it and you think needs to be wider?
Patrick:
Absolutely. Yes.
Razorsmile:
and it's not normally there, this relationship to participatory development.
Patrick:
It's a standard framework, it's a standard mindset, also the standard operating procedure, let me put it that way. However, developers or funders or operators, they come into an area to provide a solution. All they're interested in is to solve a problem. They don't involve people in how that problem... should be solved. Meaning that they come with ready-made solutions, the whole program is supply driven, I'm coming to solve your problem, you must be happy. And the new paradigm says, let it be demand driven, let people decide on the levels of service, let them decide how this infrastructure is going to be looked after, let them decide how they are going to secure the infrastructure so that it's not being vandalized. So it's a mindset shift, unfortunately, generally, government departments, role players, all they want is just to solve a problem. But they don't want to carry people along the whole value chain of participation. As a result, there's an issue of trust, because in participatory development there's also an element of trust building. If people trust that... what we're bringing is something that is going to serve them, then they become... that changes their behaviour. They also can become loyal, they can look after their own infrastructure, resources they can protect. But if there's lack of trust, and as we know there's generally lack of trust in governments. So that is problem and that is also a one major problem in the country, lack of trust is just also become a political... issue and hence the ANC lost dismalage during the previous elections and is it gonna even lose more in the next elections because there's a trust deficit between the people and the ruling party. Only when people see the ANC government behaving differently in terms of infrastructure development, in terms of participatory development, in terms of doing what they have to do, then...
that level of trust or the gap can be closed and therefore people can embrace the political parties. So it's a one way situation unfortunately we don't know what's going to happen in the next two years but mistrust is what is killing the movement.
Eric:
Can you share with us an example of where you've been able to engage in participatory development? What was that like? Just any example of where you've been able to do some participatory and just some reflections on it.
Patrick:
Yeah, there's quite a lot of examples, but I think the one that stands in my mind is the... we did a project in the Mbumalanga province, where we... this was in the early 90's, where we're establishing water boards. Water boards are almost like implementing agents of government to... to help develop and treat. water at at the bulk level. So, a project was completed, we spend a lot of time with donor agencies, USAID in particular, we used to travel quite a lot. And we used to almost come home on Fridays and Sunday we drive back. At another end, when the project was completed, the, the Chief, the local Chief called us on stage. And he personally thanked us for having made a difference in the lives of his people. So that compliment, I mean those are defining moments in one's career where you get called by a chief in front of his subjects to say, thank you, we appreciate for your contribution. I mean that, that means a lot.
Eric:
I know it's a long time ago, but can you just spend a little bit more time just thinking about some of the work that you actually undertook, just how the days would be spent with the community, getting participation, just some things that you can remember from that experience.
Patrick:
Yeah, I think also remember I was coming in as a founder. So as a founder you don't become involved right through the project cycle. So there are project steering committees who... who look after project implementation. So that's how far I went. I didn't get involved in actual ground work. ... Can't think of any specific example, but there's quite a few where we made inroads, where people lacked skills, lacked understanding of how the Hota Sector works, where we had to do a lot of capacity building, a lot of training, a lot of awareness raising in group work, in one to one. And interesting enough, As we were doing group work, I mean this reminded me of the work that we did in the past 35 years ago. So that's where all those skills came into practice, the group dynamics, understanding the power dynamics within a group, the power dynamics within the community, and how the people traverse those dynamics. So, yeah, I can't think of any other specific part. That's how far our role ended in project steering committees, but I was coming in as a founder and from the founder, the municipality would then take the process down to the local community. So our roles on the ground were quite limited.
Razorsmile:
I'm going to move on a little bit to a slightly different subject now. You've written two books, two quite different books. I wonder if you could tell us about what inspired you to write these. Just tell us about those a little bit and about the ideas you wanted to get across.
Patrick:
Here the first one is called Confessions of a Llama. Llama is an animal, a camel, it comes from the family of camels. It's found normally in South America, in Peru, in Bolivia. So, I learned a lot about it, it's an animal that for me has served so many purposes, dead or alive, alive it serves as a pet animal, it serves as a protector in terms of clothing, it's wool, it's meat, it feeds, nourishes people. Now with COVID, it's antibodies have been tested to try to cure. COVID and I hear its antibodies have also been tested to see if it can cure AIDS as well, that is alive. Dead, it serves whole lot of other purposes. So, I was asking myself, if this animal can be so purposeful, what stops human beings from saving, just like a lamb? So, the quotation that came to mind is that of Dr. Miles Monroe. that says, the greatest tragedy on Earth is not death, but a life without peoples. There are people on this Earth who simply wake up every day to go to work and come home to watch TV, eat, wake up tomorrow, go back to work. So basically those people are just breathing, they are not living. So that's how this idea came to mind and ... I traced it from the 1600 when slaves left West Africa to go to South America to go work there. So I associated those slaves as Lamas because slaves played a major role in the development of those countries in the mining of Copper, of Gold and all of that, that went to Spain. Spain today was built on the heart and blood of...
the people from Bolivia, from Peru, and some of those people came from Africa. So, I wanted to highlight the fact that these people have played the role of a Lama, and then say, so this guy, the, the, the diplomat was relating the story, and he's confessing in the book to say, this is how my life turned out, I was tracing the lives of slaves, I was imagining, I was one day, almost... getting onto their shoes to understand how they felt, lumped up in the, in the ship, tied up on the, from the back, hungry, traveling 90 days on the, on the journey to South America. So yeah, so Confessions was purely an experience of of a diplomat from South Africa who was reliving the moments of slaves and those experiences were linked to a Lama. The second book is ... Municipally Impossible, How to Build Confidence and Trust. So, this one is based on my experiences in South Africa, where I've worked in the Municipal Space, and my belief is that municipalities and governments in general, can change the way they deliver services. They can focus on the people, they can focus, change the trajectory. of ... customer service and move it to custom experience, because it's through custom experience, where people become loyal, where people trust you, where people can start paying for their services, and not sit back and say, government will do this for us. So, when it's partly impossible is to say, it is possible to turn things around, to make a difference in the lives of people, but we need to be trusted first. Yeah, so... That's in a nutshell what the book is all about.
Eric:
was just looking for a copy of my municipal impossible because I got myself a copy and I see that you've got lot of practical examples in the book.
Patrick:
you
you
Ahem.
Eric:
Have you conducted workshops on the book? Have you?
Patrick:
Yes, sir. As I said, I started my consultancy now last year in March, April. I've been building lot of networks, I've been promoting some of my work online. And the idea ultimately is to do a bit of coaching, a bit of training, a bit of lecturing at the business schools and stuff like that. So yes, it's part of the roadmap, it's in the journey that I have before me, to go out and promote some of the things that I wrote about.
Eric:
So do you see yourself now as a coach or do you see yourself as an elder, a wise elder?
Patrick:
think it's a combination. I did coaching, training. I'm doing a bit of that on the sideline, life coaching in particular. But also an elder as you say, coaching is about teaching people about life. Coaching is life, it's about life skills, it's about how to build resilience, how to succeed, how to achieve your goals, and how to solve problems. So my coaching... It's a blend between coaching and also counseling and mentoring. So I've taken an athletic approach of blending coaching, mentoring and counseling into my practices and through that integrated solution I provide advisory support to organizations and to individuals as well.
Razorsmile:
You spent your adult life kind of committed to the development of poor communities infrastructure and obviously there's a complications there we've talked about that a little bit but in terms of your own relationship to that work life you spoke earlier about a life with a purpose. that work? Does that kind of engagement with all the complications of dealing with poverty does that leave you with frustration or pride? I mean there's sometimes a sense of people who are engaged in work on the coal face, if you like, dealing with problems of poverty, where they feel overwhelmed by the problems in front of them. And sometimes that is not such a problem or difficulty for them. In your sort of life situation, how have you dealt with that? Have there been moments of frustration as well as moments of pride? Or is it... overwhelmingly kind of a positive thing. How, an individual, how has that been able to be dealt with?
Patrick:
Yeah.
I think it's a, it's a combination of all the things you've mentioned. And as I indicated in my introduction, I've traversed so many fields of work, I've learned about various disciplines and how people think within those disciplines. So when I entered the development work or the development infrastructure funding work, I came across people with different mindsets. So, I think that was what frustrated me a bit, because I looked at poverty and interventions slightly different. So, basically the things I wanted to do, not everybody else held the same ideas or notions. So, it was like I was in the call phase, doing lot of hard work, and other people were just doing the easy way out, or just providing a solution and stepping out of it. So the difference with me is that I went an extra mile to do what I had to do, where I took people along with, in terms of participation, in terms of trust building, capacity building, whereas the other people just came in with ready-made solutions, one solution, linear solution, they just came in and out. But I think overall it was... a great experience for me, because I've been immersed into all these difficult spaces, different sectors, industries, disciplines, and out of that I've immersed almost as a, can call it a jeg of all trades, but master of a few. Yeah, so I've...
Razorsmile:
or a renaissance, or a renaissance man.
Patrick:
Yes, but I've learned a lot, I've gained a lot of knowledge, lot of expertise, experience, cutting across all disciplines. And development work was the ultimate, when our real work had to be done, and I was immersed in those experiences, and I could see the fruits of my labor.
Eric:
What do you think happens to people who endure extreme poverty in a southern African context? Because you will have seen people, generation after generation, enduring intense poverty. What happens to these individuals and families and communities?
Patrick:
Yes, Eric. So, majority of those people, as we know it, underprivileged, they dispossessed, and the circumstances which led them to be in those situations, be it political, be it personal, be it family, etc. And I'm going to talk about myself. I consider myself, okay, when I grew up I didn't know I was poor. I didn't know what poverty was all about. So, I was curious about my next life of Petrary myself and my family. So, from as young as primary school, I wanted, I was thinking, dreaming big things. My peers, the ones I was with at primary school, as we speak, most of them dropped out, most of them... consider themselves unfortunate or poor. So I took a chance, I went...
to do things which maybe not everybody could do. For example, I used to knock on the doors of companies to try to see what I could do for them during school holidays. And if they said, no, we don't have a job for you, I said, I don't want you to pay me. I just want to do something for five days just to see if you're happy with my services. I used to do garden services when my mother was a maid for a white family. think the guy was a managing director of Siemens in the city of Johannesburg. We had a deal. I mend your garden, I do garden services free of charge, but you pay for my school fees. That was a deal, was a German family. As soon as I finished my metric, that's the time when I went to UCT, I didn't have money to pay for a train fare, or dinner fares to pay for a train. I only have half the fares. So I was standing on the platform, holding a... a... torn suitcase, with five YOLO... bananas that would be my breakfast lunch and dinner I waited for the train to leave the platform as soon as the train was in motion I threw my suitcase into the wind inside the the coach and jumped inside because the the inspectors were we were on the other side I rode for free up until Kimberly It by leaders where I purchased my ticket. Why am I telling this story? Poverty sometimes, yes we know poverty as we know it, but poverty doesn't define who you gonna be in the future. I was in that situation, I pulled myself out of it. My peers, the ones that I was with throughout those years...
They consider themselves living in poverty, even today. But we run the same wavelength, same experiences. We spend days in the bushes, in the rain. We only took one bath a month. Same guys, I went ahead, took a chance. They sat behind to say, they are poor. I don't know if I'm answering your question. Yes, there's poverty. But circumstances don't define your next move. But yes, definitely politically there's poverty in Africa everywhere. It has been induced by capitalist developments and whole lot of things that we know about poverty and stuff like that. But it requires a mindset as well, to say how do I get out of this situation to better myself. It is possible, that's what I'm saying, to better yourself. Although you will be considered poor.
I hope I answered your question.
Razorsmile:
When you're talking, it's interesting because you're talking, what I'm hearing is a kind of a relationship to poverty that's pacified. Do you think this is a common dynamic inside a lot of the poor communities in South Africa, that there's a kind of pacified relationship to the situation rather than a sense of engagement and an active sense of change, an active sense of moving to change?
Patrick:
Yeah.
Razorsmile:
speculate a little bit on why that passivity might be there.
Patrick:
It's a complex matter, it's intergenerational as well. We live in these circumstances, we accept them, we embrace them, it's something external to us, we can't do anything about it, therefore we are poor, we are destitute, we've got nowhere to go, there are no resources. What I'm trying to say is, your circumstances... shouldn't hold you, I mean, I took it upon myself to become resourceful, even though I was in the midst of lack of resources. I became resourceful, I took a chance, it was mindset driven, it was the spirit of resilience, I was hungry, I was hungry for success, I think maybe that summarizes the discussion, it was a hunger for success. not hunger for food that drove me. When I said at the boarding school I had lacked money, I used to eat, some infested with worms. It was not because I was angry, just because I was focused on something bigger than me. So food was just a survival thing.
Eric:
I suppose my observation around poverty is yes, there can be individuals who overcome extreme circumstances, but within that same family, there will be individuals who don't. For me, it's very much around community.
Patrick:
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Eric:
family participation and I'm also thinking that in terms of lack of resources in places I don't know if it still exists but in places when I worked in Mozambique the life expectancy was 40 in Malawi the life expectancy used to be 40 you didn't see many older people around so when you're growing up in a situation where there's just
Patrick:
Yeah.
Eric:
lack of resources where people are not eating every day and having to try to sleep because they are hungry. I think some people still have an ambition as you put it for life and for wanting to show to be creative but I think other people just break. think some people just break and some communities break and some people get broken down. That's why I've often thought that in situations of extreme poverty, Africa, in lot of communities in Africa, but it doesn't just apply to Africa, it applies to situations where you see the extreme of life, you see the worst and the best of people.
Patrick:
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Eric:
When there's absolutely no resources, where the reality of death is there, where there's no infrastructure, where it's not like the European context where there's some safety net, where people can, they will live or die and it's just, there's a chance event. In those circumstances within the communities and amongst individuals, you see the best of life and you see the worst of life.
Patrick:
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm?
Yeah, absolutely, I agree, I agree, I agree. However Eric, and this is what I keep saying, it is possible. for most of those people. to see the light where there's no light. Only through support, whether it's through government programs, whether it's through donor programs, uplifting people from the situations and the circumstances they come from. Showing them how to fish, teaching them how to fish, and giving them the fishing rods and everything. Unfortunately, as we say, some of those people don't have access. And we talk about deep remote rural areas, where there's absolutely nothing. Definitely agree. But it is possible, something can be done. South Africa's budget runs into trillions of rent. Definitely our municipalities can play, or government can play a role, in implementing progressive, poverty driven programs, which uplift people from the circumstances they find themselves. There are so many examples of success stories, I mean you go to remote rural areas, everybody has a smartphone. The question is, what can you do with a smartphone? Do you use a smartphone just to call Eric, or you can use a smartphone?
to render a service. I was telling some graduates at home the last time I was there, that all people in the village go to the local clinic to fetch their medicine. Every month they go to the local stores at Sun City, which is about 40 Ks to go buy groceries. You as a graduate, you've got a smartphone, yes. Why don't you open an app... Most of these old ladies, they've got grandkids, they've got cell phones, all of them. Open an app for every old person who wants their medicine to be collected. We charge them a small fee. Those who want to go to the shops, you charge them a small fee. That is being resourceful, out of nothing. I mean, all I'm saying is, look at what you have, and what you can make out of it. But yes, there are extreme cases, but it is possible.
Razorsmile:
Thinking about this in terms of other people who might want to move into the field of working with communities of poverty or in social work or therapy students, do you think those kind of students, if they're focused only on one-to-one work, if they're focused only as it were on the individual, do you think that's enough? Do you think they have to think about their work in the context of group and community relationships? I mean, you seem to be talking about communities here. and about when we're uplifting and participating communities. And so it seems like that kind of is very important. And as such, any strategy that just focus on an individual might miss that. Would that be sort of an accurate kind of thinking of how you're describing things?
Patrick:
Mm-hmm.
I think so, I mean if I look back at the kind of training we got, compared to the knowledge and experience I've gained, I actually feel there's a big gap between practice and theory, meaning that universities and training programs, they need to introduce a holistic integrated training program, which looks at... people which looks at communities, which looks at politics, economy, everything in totality. To see how politics affect people, how health or economy affects people. But in this current training models, everything is more linear, is more about understanding the family, the background, how to counsel them, what are the theories around that, and then that's it. We missed out on a bigger picture. And that bigger picture is what contributes to the development or uplifting of people. So that gap, unfortunately, I believe is still there. And if I was to advise anybody, I would say, rather at first year as an example, have a multi-disciplinary course, which addresses all these issues that we've been talking about, so that somebody is well grounded as soon as they graduate, to take out the things much more holistically.
Eric:
Would you consider yourself to be a South African or an African and if the latter would you say you're a Pan-Africanist or how would you situate yourself in the world now?
Patrick:
I would say I'm an African because Africanism is what defines who we are, it defines our state of being. Talking about that, the interesting thing when COVID came, by the way, the whole world were looking at Africa, that COVID is going to wipe the hell out of us because of poverty, because we are in Africa and poor continents. Guess what? The opposite happened. Africa is rich, not only in resources, but in terms of the mental resilience. Spiritualism, the way of thinking, the way of life, I think we are deeply rooted. We can fall back onto something, we... it gives you strength, it gives you the... the mental state which other people don't have, so we... I think we... I don't know if it's brave or what. We can enter into any situation and remain unscathed, psychologically or otherwise. That's what I strongly believe in the African power and dynamism.
Razorsmile:
You've spoken about your own kind of youth and the way you kind of come into community work and university and you speak with a little bit of joy about that kind of like when you were younger. Do you feel like you can understand the youth of today and their needs? Because presumably there's a huge difference now between the situation you grew up in, the situation of youth under apartheid in the 80s and early 90s, you know. Is there a generation gap? it possible for you? Are the youth in Africa and South Africa accessible to you? Do you have an understanding, do you feel, of the youth around you?
Patrick:
Unfortunately, the youth of today have been stolen by capitalism, modernism. It's a new way of life, a new way of thinking, where technology matters, where money matters, where material things matter. Anything outside of that doesn't matter. So, youth of today are almost in a different... state of mind, it's a different development paradigm, which that's why they don't resonate with what we went through as youth in those past, they don't even believe the things that we've been through. Sometimes they think we are exaggerating. It's a pity because our youth has lost almost like our dual quality. a perspective about life, their life is more one what I gain, what I get now, than how Humanity, other people are going to, to, to survive or to benefit. So everybody for himself, survival of the fittest, I the latest iPhone, I won the latest car, I graduate. The thing about development work, doing development... programs, studying people, human behavior. It's all fluffy stuff, nobody's interested in that. Graduates now want to know how much am I gonna earn, and how much am I gonna, where am I gonna live, what car am I gonna drive. Anything else, everybody else, just stuff them, it's all about me. Which is a pity, because that's the direction our countries are taking. youth don't look at their own communities, they graduate from there onwards, they don't want to live in their own communities, obviously, because of lack of employment or resources there, but they can still go back and implement projects and uplift other youth, emerging youth. So, it's a pity and I blame it all on the...
supposed modern capitalist state of thinking, where everybody is for himself. I mean, you can compare that currently to what's going on. Probably if you take the youth of Russia and the youth of Ukraine, you'll understand what I'm trying to say. The Ukraine's ones are looking at how to enrich themselves, how to be successful. The Russian ones are looking at life slightly different, while the Chinese ones are looking at life. slightly different, hence progression or growth from both paradigms is slightly different in terms of life outlook and how somebody becomes as an adult or how somebody's mindset is built into today's life and yeah. So we've got two different youth. and two different paradigms and unfortunately capitalism is dominating the youth paradigm currently.
Eric:
mean in the UK context one sees a very similar thing with young people there's more and more of a rise of me me me me me me culture so I don't think it's just a South African or even an African phenomena I mean I can't speak for other countries but I do see it I definitely see it in London and I'm sure that Matt probably sees it in Brighton but there's definitely a rise of a me me me culture I suppose
Patrick:
Ciao. Yeah.
So low, you?
Eric:
I just have two more questions for you but when I think about the world my daughter's going to grow up in it leaves me with a sense of leaves me frightened. leaves me, when I look into the future, I think there's something I can't quite imagine what the future is going to be like. And I think with previous generations, the elders had a capacity to, one could learn from the elders and they had some capacity to imagine how things would be. But globally, things are changing so much.
Patrick:
Mm-mm-mm-mm.
Yeah, yeah.
Eric:
I don't know if this is just an old man's pessimism speaking but I do wonder about what on earth the future will hold for young people.
Patrick:
No. No.
Yeah, no, definitely. So, our generation, unfortunately, we are a dying species, so the youth are conquering, they're taking over. I mean, you look at Cape Town, there's a lot of start-ups, companies in Cape Town, involving youth, youth is into technology, youth is making a lot of money. Youth, in fact, don't want to study anymore. because for them studying is a waste of time. They're into a Cryptocurrency, they are traders, they are doing all lot of things, obviously good things, but ... is it molding them into better people? Is it mold them into a better society? That's questionable, as you say, me, me, me. And the rest can just go and starve themselves, which is a pity. That's why I said in my opening remarks, I'm beginning to question the... the notion of Humanity and an International Community, because we've lost Humanity. Things are just going the opposite way, where people's lives don't matter anymore. And we see this daily on our televisions.
Razorsmile:
I'm going to bring this into a to an end in some ways, but like a final kind of like subject to talk about your hopes for South Africa. Obviously, being involved in struggle in South Africa and having lived through a time of enormous transformation. What do you think would need to happen for your dreams of South Africa to come true? I mean, and what hopes for South Africa do you have?
Patrick:
Yeah. Yes, definitely there's hope. for in South Africa. Government is putting or investing a lot of resources into education. Poor students are receiving bursaries. There's a lot of initiatives that are there to uplift the youth, whether in funding for small businesses and otherwise. So unlike my generation, the youth of today in South Africa have full access to resources, to knowledge, to skills. So it's an open book, where every youth across the corners of South Africa can access this kind of resources. So, education I think is a key driver, and it's not only normal education that we went through, we can talk about skills training, there's new technology, innovation skills, that youth are going into AI and a whole lot of related... So it is exciting. There's a lot of investors or investments coming to South Africa across all sectors. So the space has opened up, waiting for the youth to grab existing opportunities. So yes, I'm quite hopeful and I see a better future for South Africa. But it comes back to what have we created the right mindset in our youth. think that is where the gap is. Because the youth are only thinking about...
themselves, they are not thinking about the bigger goodness or greatness of South Africa in general. So that mindset shift is quite paramount and is really necessary to build a united South Africa, to build communities, to build humanity for all. Otherwise, if you keep empowering youth to empower themselves... Only then we are building the wrong youth and the wrong society.
Eric:
You remind me of Steve Biko who said we mustn't just liberate from the land we need to liberate from the mind but my last question for you Patrick is would you do it all again and Why would you do it all again if you if you would do it again if you had to love your life over? Would you live the same life or would you do it live a different life? That's my last question
Patrick:
Absolutely.
Strange enough, I asked myself the same question. Would I go back to share water with animals? Would I go back to eat worms? Probably not. I think circumstances then push me to do it. So, I'll probably decide on doing other things rather than getting bogged down into those survivalist skills that I had then. But... doing it all over? I think so. I think my life has been an interesting journey of struggle, of success, of resilience. And when I look back, I even ask myself, did I really do that? And that's what I've taught my kids. My child, for instance, failed for the first time in her life, a module at Stellenbosch University. She was in the fifth year and she called me to say, Deli, I failed that module and she was crying. And I replied and said, thank you for failing that module. And she said, Deli, did you hear what I said? Are you okay? I said, yes, I'm very clear. I said, you need to be thankful for having failed. And all I was trying to say to her was that... You learn from failure, you don't learn from success. And that's what has gromped me, prepared me to face challenges. So, all the time she's been passing, she's been succeeding, she never learned anything. And as soon as she, she, she passed that module, she started seeing things quite differently. She's now a food scientist, within two months, three months in her job, she was already promoted. Within six months, she's already a manager. So it's all about perseverance, it's all about resilience. That passion that I had as a child, I've somehow passed it to them. And I'm very proud that I am where I am, and I was able to go through the life that I've been, and I'm now imparting those experiences to other people as well.
Razorsmile:
Thank you Patrick, that's that's been great and I've really enjoyed listening to your life story there and I'm sure there's an awful lot more we could get into a beer in the evening at some point. I'm going to I'm going to end the recording now, just stay where you are though.
Patrick:
Yes.
Thank you so much.